@BrionC it's not about policing people's language - it's about teaching people how consent and boundaries work beyond sex, so including in social situations like work and with acquaintances.
Do you go around intentionally calling people names they hate? After multiple attempts from them politely asking you not to call them that name? That's usually called bullying and is socially frowned upon.
When you insist on deadnaming people or on misgendering them, all you are doing is looking like a bully and a jerk. You're not making some grand social statement about your beliefs on gender. You're showing people that you do not honor boundaries and that you violate consent. You are showing that you are not a safe person, for anyone. It's not the flex you think it is. Thus my comment above about how even if you disagree with transgender people living as their gender, you can still honor boundaries. You do not have to be a jackass to prove your point.
@Mike403 so because trolls will flame, it's better not to educate those like @lonelytauros who genuinely have questions?
Sometimes it's better to stand up to bullies, and sometimes it's better to keep putting the info out there because eventually it'll sink in. I've seen it happen, and I can only hope it will continue happening. Do I expect to change people's minds? No. But by countering harmful myths and stereotypes, sometimes a little crack forms in some people's minds that leads them to start listening to others more.
Saying that natural disasters happen because transgender people exist.
I agree with you, this one is outrageous. Everyone knows natural disasters such as hurricanes, wild fires and drought happen because of cow farts and SUVs.
On a more serious and sincere note, based on my belief that women’s sports should be reserved for biological women, and the fact I don’t celebrate Pride month, I know you consider me a homophobe - a label you apply to people for 17 enumerated actions / beliefs and as you point out, that is not an exhaustive list.
The problem with having such a broad definition is you lump a lot of different people under one label. You can attempt to sub divide those you have labeled as “one of the better ones” or “one of the worse ones” but the label remains.
When you asked me in another thread if I just didn’t celebrate Pride month or whether I didn’t want Pride month to exist you were attempting to sort me into your sub categories of homophobes. I directly answered your question in my first response (a portion of my response you failed to include when quoting me later in the thread).
To answer your question, I simply don’t celebrate it but I am not attempting to prevent anyone else from celebrating it. Similarly, where I used to work (here in the States) there were a lot of British ex-pats who didn’t celebrate 4th of July but they didn’t get upset about Americans celebrating it. It just wasn’t something they celebrated.
What I found offensive was the second part of your question where you implied if I didn’t want Pride MONTH to exist (a celebration 30 times longer than Veterans DAY) that might mean I was among those who “don’t want people like you to exist”.
NOTHING in my original post even hinted at condoning hate or violence but you were checking to see if I was one of the “less bad” homophobes with a “live and let live” philosophy or if I was one of the “more bad” homophobes who condone hate and violence.
Serious question: would you be offended if I had asked you, “are you just a trans person or the type of trans person who condones shooting children at a Christian school in Nashville”? The question itself is insulting because as much as you and I may disagree on things, you have not said anything to suggest you condone violence.
If you knew me IRL you would understand how offensive your question was. I believe ALL human life is sacred. Not only do I not condone violence, I have paid for medical training out of my own pocket and I carry an emergency trauma kit with me every time I leave the house to be in a position to render assistance to ANYONE (gay, trans, strait, black, white, Asian, Hispanic, Biden supporter, Trump supporter, etc.) because seconds matter when a person has arterial bleeding and there are a lot of unstable people from various walks of life who commit violent acts on innocent people every day.
Call me a homophobe all you want but rest assured, if I ever see you in need of emergency assistance I will do everything in my power to help you.
@Kense In my experience, topics don't get locked because some people are offended by their existence. Those people are not being forced to participate in or even read the topic.
I have no idea if this will be helpful at all, so I'll spoiler it. It's kind of my own story of going back and forth with being transphobic in the past.
It's always been very important for me to identify as male. But, I've always had some traits that are traditionally feminine.
In a college class, I remember learning about the idea that gender and biological sex were two different ideas. I think because I had some feminine traits, this idea appealed to me.
So I used my imagination to deeply imagine hypothetical scenario everyone in my life treated me like a female even though I wanted so badly to be treated like a male. I imagined if people referred to me as she, if they called me "Wilma" instead of Will, if I had to sit with girls, be on girls' teams, use girls' bathrooms, or everything else. I imagined myself being as nice and polite and patient as I possibly could, not wanting to harm anybody or do anything to them. I just wanted them to treat me like a guy, and they just refused to do it because all they could ever see me as is a girl...and they felt like THEY had the right to do so, to tell me what I was because of how it looked to them.
And that thought always felt horrible to me. It felt horrible to have people not understand or trust what's inside of you because they couldn't see it themselves. So I think for me, that natural empathy has always made want to trust that trans people know who they are better than I do.
But I still struggled with this idea from a logical standpoint, because I didn't fully understand the idea. I doubted that it was real. I basically felt what I personally think a lot of people feel but don't want to say because they know they'll get blasted for it: that trans people are "crazy" and that there's something wrong with them, something that can be fixed. I basically felt like I understood them better than they understood themselves, and that I was right because of what made sense in my mind, because I could not imagine what it was like for ME to think I was female.
And I grappled back and forth with these two ideas, never being sure which one to believe. And what I noticed in myself was a certain confirmation bias of what kind of information I was looking at based on whichever one I believed more firmly at the time.
I've tried noticing confirmation biases in my life, and it's kind of scary how much I will seek out sources that match up with my beliefs to avoid cognitive dissonance. It's so easy to gravitate to the things that support what you FEEL rather than removing all of your beliefs and look at things objectively as possible.
So there were times where I gravitated towards cases of people studying the idea that trans people are actually happier with their gender assigned at birth. Or cases where someone isn't truly trans, but tried being another gender and realized they weren't trans. During those times, my mind WANTED to believe this, and that everyone really is the gender that they were assigned at birth/biological sex, and that believing they are a different gender is a disorder, and that there is treatment to get them "fixed" to feel like they're the same gender assigned at birth.
I basically didn't try to look at it objectively, but basically tried to zero in on the situations supporting that idea and block out everything that went against it.
But over time this gnawed away at me, because every time I heard a trans person's story, I kept going back to my original hypothetical of imagining what if it happened to me.
So eventually, I got to the point of trying to remove my bias. I said, "Ok, let's not assume anything. Let's say "I don't know". I don't know if someone is healthier and happier if they accept the gender they truly feel inside, or if they are somehow convinced to be their gender assigned at birth".
And after hearing story after story from trans people, and LISTENING to them instead of deciding things for myself...AND by looking at it objectively from people who study this and whose job is to BE objective about it, and seeing how there are MANY more cases of people being much happier embracing their true gender, not the one assigned to them at birth. I finally realized: They know their lives better than me. they know what they have felt their entire lives better than I know their entire lives. I have to trust them, in the same way I would want them to trust me.
And when you truly listen to someone, and believe what they tell you about THEMSELVES, and don't write it off as you understanding them better because of your own beliefs of what is true about all humans...you start to view it differently.
This is why trans women are women, trans men are men. To me, this topic boils down to do you truly believe that or not. I don't want to speak for the trans community, but in my mind, that question answers so much about everything else that goes with this topic.
If someone doesn't truly believe that, I think they have a transphobic belief. I don't think that makes them a bad person or someone who HATES trans people or wants bad things to happen to them or won't be nice and respectful and courteous to them or won't listen to them about other things. I personally think that when people are told they have a transphobic belief, they start imagining all of these other things that are not true about themselves, and it keeps them from ever thinking about that core belief.
As always, I'm not right about everything. And things can vary tremendously from person to person. This is my just personal take for anyone who cared to read it.
@Kense You are a transphobe because they say you are. If you disagree- you are just "showing how transphobic you are" This should be relatively easy to follow.
@BrionC You should be aware that to point out hypocrisy or calling out people for baselessly slandering others as transphobic is also in and of itself Transphobic- No worries though -there is a well written set of rules you have to follow to "Prove" you are not actually transphobic.
All who are confused should please Refer to @Unscented_Lemon's rule number 5 - 11 - and 12
Also- @Kense and all the other disagreeable Transphobes out here- Please take special note rule # 16 and use your languae in accordance with it.
While "biological male" and "biological female" aren't necessarily transphobic, they are terms commonly used by transphobes. Plus, biology isn't that simple. "Biological" fails to account for intersex
Even the great George Orwell woud have never imagined it could get this wild.
I'm with @Specialist_Log . I don't buy into the OP way of thinking and to call someone an a**hole because they hold a different set of values than you is kind of the problem the trans community has. They think they can force feed you into thinking the way they do. Like is has been said before in this thread, if that makes me homophobic, oh well... your view of me means nothing.
@Mike403 You are 100% correct. It is better for all of us to keep our own thoughts/opinions on the subject.
@WriterGF If I started a thread “What Anti Black racism looks like” and had 17 bullet points calling responders racists for not matching just 1 Of my bullet points, say , not going out their way to celebrate Juneteenth , then saying they are a racist , you can guarantee it would get locked .
There are a lot of things people do that could be called racist but guess what it doesn’t mean they are racist, real racism is disgusting and I’ve faced it , minor personal beliefs a person may have doesn’t affect me nor do I give a damn what a person may feel about me or Blacks in general nor would I try to change a persons thoughts by whining on a message board for acceptance from people. This thread here was started for a flame war.
I already explained in a different thread how that side debates Here is a reminder :
Those who claim to be tolerant of other opinions, who also consider themselves to be more morally enlightened or superior because of their supposed tolerance are the ones who demonstrate intolerance toward those who disagree with them since they believe they know better what's right and what's wrong and what people should and shouldn't say. and when confronted and exposed, they resort to labeling, name calling, boycotting, cancelling and other similar peaceful acts of tolerance and understanding. And here they just block, flag and report. anything they falsely consider bigotry, or misogyny or this or that phobia. They only tolerate the opinions they like.
So it's a waste of time debating . Stop feeding into it. As far as trolling in here, that thread itself is a trolling act as far as I'm concerned.
The only phobe here is the OP.
@Kense
I actually really appreciate your post because it gives me a lot of insight at to why you believe the way you do.
I have a black friend who feels completely differently about this than you. Based on conversations I've had with her in the past, she would think your suggested thread would be completely justified, but probably wouldn't make it because she thinks that white fragility is a very common things. She believes in people having racist beliefs and actions rather than viewing people simply as racist. She has told me that I can have racist beliefs and still be a wonderful friend to her and someone she deeply values, and that me having those beliefs does not make me the same as someone who exhibits what you refer to as real racism and is disgusting.
From me being someone who is not black, I don't view myself as someone who can make the determination of which of you has the right way of viewing this, or even if there is a right way. I view it as something the black community has a much better understanding of than I ever could.
From my point of view, even just hearing those differing opinions just goes to show how much diversity there is in that community.
I don't want to speak for the trans community, so I could be wrong on this, but this is the impression that I've gotten. The trans community is smaller than the black community, and even though there is a lot of diversity in it as well, because it's smaller, it feels like there tends to be more agreement on certain principles and ideas. I haven't met as many trans people who disagree as much with some of what the OP said, at least not to the degree in which you would disagree with my black friend about racism. Maybe this is just me and my own limited experience with trans people compared to black people (once again, due to the overall size), so I could be wrong.
But, my point is that while there is a lot of similarity to the topics of race and transgenderism, they're not exactly the same, and I don't think it's fair to equate the two.
However, I can understand that your own personal experiences about a lot of the racism you've experienced in the past can have you believe that the things in the OP just simply aren't as big of a deal. I can understand that feeling. And I can also understand why you feel being called transphobic is equated in your mind to the "real" racism you've experienced, and I can definitely understand why that would upset you so much. I remember earlier in another thread I asked you why being called transphobic was so upsetting, and seeing your post here has given me much more insight as to why...because if I'm interpreting this correctly, you feel like the OP is calling you the equivalent of those "real racists" that you've had to deal with in your life, and you take great offence to that.
And I completely believe that's a valid feeling. I don't think anyone would like to be labeled that way, because I think pretty much of all of us view it as disgusting and immoral behavior.
My thought is that this is not what the OP means by transphobia. And I think the word "transphobe" is a loaded term that people are attaching their own meaning to, and that's why a topic like this leads to so much strong emotions being felt.
@Kense So flag the topic if you don't like it.
@Will564 , thanks for your post. The thing is I don’t have a problem discussing others views on racism , I deal in facts and reality, in fact I welcome conversation without long winded self grandiose lecturing and name calling.
Did something happen to OP here on CC that initiated this thread? Just curious.
👏👏👏
Yep, I'm intolerant of others' intolerance. I love it when oppressors act like the victim. Sorry, you fail the victim Olympics. maybe next year.
I can't believe what I'm reading here.
@Kense I'm sorry you've experienced racism. So have I . And an anti-racist thread is long overdue. But bringing your issue into another's topic is not cool either. And what of people who are Black and transgender ? they get twice the discrimination. Both things are horrible imo.
@robroo there have been multiple threads where transphobic comments were made either in isolation or in response to things @Unscented_Lemon said. Each time it has devolved into further problematic argument as those complaining the loudest about being called transphobic do not seem to understand what the term means nor why it applies to what they are saying.
And as @Mike403 those threads do tend to get shut down as they turn into w back and forth between the two sides, though I disagree with the description of them being flame wars. There is a difference between anger and name calling, and passionate debate locked in stalemate. I know a lot of people dislike observing these conversations as they can get tedious and stressful, but there is always the option to opt out - turn off notifications for the thread, don't read threads on the topic, etc.
I do still wish there were sub-category organization within the forums and the option to block individuals within it, as I think it would go a long way towards better user experience and engagement - but those have already been added to the suggestion queue 🤷🏻♀️
And an anti-racist thread is long overdue. But bringing your issue into another's topic is not cool either. And what of people who are Black and transgender ? they get twice the discrimination. Both things are horrible imo.
☝️☝️☝️ THIS!!! Thank you, @Minestrone101 !
Pride and the LGBTQIA+ movement were started by black trans women, and yet BIPOC trans women face the most discrimination of all still and receive the least amount of attention and support.
@Kense , I absolutely hate that you've experienced racism, and if you feel so called you absolutely SHOULD start a thread on anti-racism. I'd support the hell out of that. But please don't invalidate other people's experiences and the discrimination they have faced. We can support each other.
First of all I’m not flagging anybody’s post . I don’t run to the mods because I don’t like a post .
Second I’m not bringing my “issues” or down playing anything . My point was stop judging and labeling people because they disagree with you.
I think what's so tough about these conversations, and why they run into these stalemates, is that people have their own individual detailed stories and reasons why they have beliefs that they do. In the public forum, those reasons are dismissed, on both sides, and people don't feel like they're being heard. I personally think there is some quick judgment thrown out, and while I understand the reasons for that, I don't think it really helps the conversation go anywhere.
And if that's the point and what everyone wants, so be it. It's just for me, I've heard some personal perspectives of people over DM that has shed a lot more light about the emotion that goes into where their beliefs come from. It really sheds some light on why they feel as strongly as they do, and I think those things get immediately overlooked in the forum posts.
I'm always going to err on the side of the minority myself, just because I don't think it's balanced, and maybe because I understand the feeling of being in the minority. But I don't think that means people can't listen more.
But I'm also reaching a point of feeling like maybe I should just let things be and let people do what they will.
I don't need to speak for @Kense but he clearly did not comment on this post to let everyone know he experienced racism. He obviously saw victim hood Olympics on display and called out the verbal bullying of those who label everyone Transphobe when they don't meet certain people's self defined criteria of who is and isn't a Transphobe.
He -like many of us don't subscribe to the theory of many genders and that is simply not tolerated by the self proclaimed tolerant.
Let's also address the elephant in the room- @Kense has stated that he is Black This presents a serious problem for those always seeking to be a part of or identify with the victim class mentality.
SInce @Kense does not subscribe to deciding that everyone is a Transphobe/Racist/Hateful Bigot based on those who may disagree with him. This group of self proclaimed activists just do not know how to respond.
It is quite an amusing spectacle to behold.
I love the dude claiming to love veterans and crying about them having one day, when the "only" day they have is a national holiday.
Oh and also May is veterans month but you wouldn't know that because you don't actually care about veterans.
Signed, A veteran.
If only we can all just hate each other equally.
I just want to say, if someone makes a thread saying "this is transphobic!" Or "This is racist!" And you jump into the thread to "defend yourself" even though you weren't specifically mentioned or pointed at, maybe take a good look at yourself and really dig into why you feel so called out?
It really feels like telling on yourself.
Like when I hear an offhand generic comment about white people being racist, or men being awful, I, a white male don't get offended. I know who I am. I know my values and I know how I treat those around me. Why would I need to defend myself when no one pointed any fingers at me?
I thought OP was a good read. thanks for posting.
@Kense they're not being labeled because of disagreement. They're being labeled because the label fits. If people don't like the label, then they should explore ways to not have the label applied to them. Transphobic is a descriptive adjective - if it describes a set of words, action, behavior, or person's traits, then it's understandable to be used as a label for them.
The definitions @Unscented_Lemon supplied for transphobia are not subjective personal ones, but rather widely accepted international standards on protecting trans rights as equal human rights on the basis of sex and gender expression. It is outlined in international human rights law and in guidelines provided by the UN, the WHO, the ACLU, the Human Rights Campaign, and the U.S. DOJ.
More resources specific to issues on transphobia that people have brought up:
Video taken from the DOJ Law Enforcement Training Toolkit that is on the site I linked above - HIGHLY recommend watching this, as it shows a community police force demonstrating positive actions that can be taken to improve safety and inclusion for all citizens.
Myths & Facts about Transgender Rights - HRC
Facts on Gender Affirming Care - HRC
The Real Threat to Women's Sports - HRC
Definitions of Sex & Gender - National Institute of Health
Opinion: Biological Science Rejects the Sex Binary, and That’s Good for Humanity - The Scientist - while an opinion piece, this has links to a bunch of articles and studies and is well-backed in its main premise.
Scientific Terminology: Beliefs, Facts, Theories, Hypotheses, and Laws
Understanding Science 101: Even Theories Change - UC Berkeley
Sex Redefined: The Idea of 2 Sexes Is Overly Simplistic - Scientific American
[Biology Rejects a Sex Binary: Gametes Aren't Binary, After All](Biology Rejects a Sex Binary: Gametes Aren't Binary, After All) - shorter article with relevant citation links posted on LinkedIn. Longer article linked below.
Gender Spectrum: A Scientist Explains Why Gender Isn’t Binary - explores the science behind the intersection between a non-binary model of biological sex and a non-binary model of gender.
So, I see people keep attacking others because they have a different opinion or perspective or belief. Unfortunately, this is a microcosm of our society today. For some reason, there are a group of people that insist on everyone else sharing their views. That doesn’t work just and most people do not change their beliefs just because you want them too.
What is a woman? Please define what a woman is in 1 sentence.
@Unscented_Lemon you are a biological male and an adult, that makes you a man.
You were born a biological male. That was not 'assigned to you at birth', you literally are a biological male.
Since you are an adult biological male, how are you supposed to be a 'woman' exactly?
@deathdish - How many times do they have to ban you? Find something more productive to do with your time.